Z+ AND X+ AXIS VS CAMERA

[speaker-election]

Hello,

NEWBIE!!
I am working on some testing for a animation viewer. They need the form to come in on Z+ FIGURE MOVES FORWARD. The X+ axis is to the RIGHT. Y+ is up. I noted the cameras for front and back on such a axis are flipped in c4. So, i am wondering if cameras have anything to do with defined spaces. Also the arrows on foundation axis have Z Points back and and X Arrow point left. link text Google Link

Thanks for helping out the newbie!

[Dr. Sassi]

Hi speaker-election,

Each view has its own virtual camera. Think of it like a TV studio where you have four (or even more) cameras, each occupying a different position and orientation.

The Object in the scene uses the World Space defined by X, Y, and Z positions. That space stays the same, independent of the camera it is seen by.

The Object relates to the world space to find a position and is even more dependent when animated. Now think about the adjustment of animation when you look through one camera, then through another camera, the Object's XYZ stays as they were.

Let's assume that the camera would change any object's values; as you can move the camera, the actor's values would also change. That would be a huge chaos.

Now you want to have more cameras and render from different views, meaning the hundreds of values for a character with joints would change every time each camera and camera position changes. I hope my wild exploration helps to understand why things are as they are.

Cameras do not change numbers for position, scale, or rotation for an object, character, or whatever in the scene. (Exception would be the object is a child of the camera, but I write this more to be precise here, as not relevant right now!)

The data that will follow your idea is when you move these cameras. They are virtual, but you can set those up and camera objects.

The View Cameras are kind of virtual, but you can use camera objects in the scene with parameters, and they have X, Y, and Z that follows the viewer, which the camera represents. Even then, the World space stays untouched.

My impression is that you come from a 2D world, and you have 2D as a natural view in your creative muscle memory. I could set up a few cameras where you can use Camera XYZ more like a 2D view, but for now, please try to dive into this World space first to feel more comfortable.

Does this make sense now? If not, please share your thoughts and ideas, and I will try to provide more examples.

Have a great weekend.

[speaker-election]

Thanks Dr. Sassi,
I do work in 3d daily, but apparel landscapes are different. We have kind of a opposing axis for front to back and left to right. This deals more with pattern grading and etc. This is a test project with IEEE and HAnim, even they are learning tooling issues based on axis interoperability with hanim and x3d. I am more a newbie to the scripting animation methods as my background is truly found in apparel pattern drafting and human fit form build for brands.

What I am wondering is the defined world space coordinates for c4d. For example, in blender I can set these coordinates. Same with aspects of rhino, although rhino has a default of Z+ FACING UP. The response you gave is great for referencing materials but didn't actively answer the questions. In this case my products need the coordinates of world space to be X+ SLIDING TO VIEWERS RIGHT, Z+SLIDING FORWARD TO USERS FACE. Y+ is sliding up from center. I am more or less trying to trouble should the balance of coordinates for the proper exports of the vmrl, animation, and of course the polygons, vertices, and textures.

1. Question: What defined workspace for c4d. What direction is x+ facing direction? Z+ Positive facing direction,
2. Is there a more direct way to define plane axis direction beyond the gizmo tools?

[speaker-election]

image of the correct coordinate system for Hanim.
https://www.shutterstock.com/image-vector/cartesian-coordinate-system-perspective-grid-threedimensional-1897150153

[Dr. Sassi]

Hi speaker-elections,

Some 3D apps have Z as the up Axis, several of them based on the fact that they used a 2D idea as a start, often seen as XY space (2D).

I have answered your question based on what Cinema 4D can offer and how it works, but you are looking for something else, and I'm not sure if we offer that. The uncertainty is perhaps based on communication problems, so let me try a few other things. Fingers crossed something might help.

I will try again. The space in which objects are placed is based on three axes. As mentioned, some have z as the vertical Axis; some use the Y axis.

Any 3D application I have used in the past 30+ years that had 3D space used positive to negative Axis, and three of them. Which letter they put to the Axis is a decision of the company, not something that is defined as right or wrong. Many of our import or export option allows us to flip that vertical axis letter.

The camera axis is related to the Worldspace of a scene, but you can place the camera under a Null, and then this Null is the "new space" for the camera. Which is called Local Coordinates. But it doesn't do what you like to have the Blender way:
https://www.dummies.com/article/technology/software/animation-software/blender/coordinate-systems-in-blender-142885/
It describes it very well, and the article points out the differences.

Having worked a few apps in my life (200+), I have learned that the best way to gain the full potential of an application is to dive into the system that the app provides, including its functions and options. Searching for a duplication of the "other app" will only lead to workarounds.
https://help.maxon.net/c4d/en-us/?_gl=11dcylni_gcl_au*MTcwMDA3NjQxOS4xNjkwODU2ODIy#html/5742.html?TocPath=_____10
And
https://help.maxon.net/c4d/2023/en-us/Default.htm#html/PREFSNAVIGATION-PREF_NAVIGATION_MAIN_GROUP.html#PREF_NAVIGATION_CAMERA

I hope that helps.

I googled the terms you use, "apparel landscapes", "IEEE," and "HAnim" (https://www.seamless3d.com/index.html) (The site seems like a DIY, and the FB page has 89 followers with very little content, the forum gives me an error message, so I guess that is not the one?). The term IEEE is typically used for the "Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers", so I'm confused here.

The main image you have linked shows a Y-axis up [+] and an Isometric view. Is that what you are looking for?
https://help.maxon.net/c4d/2023/en-us/Default.htm#html/5858.html

One more: you can set the Workplane to any selection you like, e.g., to the selected object.
https://help.maxon.net/c4d/s26/en-us/Default.htm#html/51893.html

The Points of a polygon or spline object in Cinema 4d relate to the Axis of the object itself. If that Axis were changed with each click, the amount of new calculations and storage of that new data would slow down the app. Especially when other parts of the application take that data to produce animations based on it (e.g., MoGraph, or Character Animation)

I hope to have given you a few ideas, even if I think that nothing will work for you. It is the first time in the past twenty years teaching 3D that I got this request for Cinema 4D, so I assume I missed something here. Perhaps the three terms you mentioned might clarify things up slightly.

My best wishes.

[speaker-election]

Yes this answer was helpful. The apparel programs I refer to are this in Lectra, vstitcher, clo, Logitech and etc. Apparel as a flipped axis because we are making tangible product on form. We keep our right to the right and left to body left to ensure consistent market output for cutting. Also grading for the axis is extremely important. Grading has and always works in the 3D visuals. We have used these axis locations since 1908 when grading was being invented. You this means the persons right is + z and persons left is -z. Directive sewing and fitting is also reliant on the space.
That said when I trouble shoot on the end use between programs it helps to always have the program specific division. Like rhino, we alway have to adjust body scans coming in from specific scanners. They come in with verticals z+ axis and again, because I have the world spec coordinates easily found, I can troubleshoot all other items.
Yes, I am with the IEEE. I work in the 3D apparel and humanoid body divisions. p3141 standards. We review various 3D human forms and the uses in games, apparel, VR/ AR, and holograph. We have several papers on the broken systems of inaccurate bodies from scans, rigging impact on fit and etc. So I do use c4D to clean them up for correct fitting in apparel as even in program forms are not correct. We present regularly at 3D body tech. This project is a collaboration with HAnim a web 3 consortium project. The product is browser animations that are more accurate and could possibly be made for virtual try-on capacities. And yes, it’s a simple and weird question from the outside. But apparel is a different process. We do have set world space as the bodies and zero space physics get programmed for our work. They have a lot of difference going on under the hood that even the engineers with 30 years in 3D that also teach were caught off guard by. So your answer has let me know to essentially flip the rig and body in opposition to gain the right incoming for their system.

[Dr. Sassi]

Thanks a lot, speaker-election, for the time and patience.

I certainly know how it feels to want something that seems natural to me and not get people to understand it –– Long story…, so you have my full attention.

I have minimal experience with apparel besides knowing how to get what I need from my sewing machine, like doing special-sized paddings for camera cases.

You are undoubtedly aware of specialized cloth applications, and if you use one of those, I will try to look into it.

If one of the problems is flipping the axis, perhaps explore what import format works for you and check if it can adjust axis data during import.
VStitcher has FBX, which has during-import options to see the axis to a certain degree.
FBX import option:

https://help.browzwear.com/hc/en-us/articles/4921282974233-3D-Object-Files-and-Formats

The Rotation of an axis is effortless anyway; press the L key once and rotate the object axis; after you start rotating, push the Shift key to get clean steps, as you like to have a rotation for this in 90º, I assume. Press the L key again to get out of the Axis Modification mode.
As mentioned above, you can see the Work-plane to your needs. To not see the Workplane each time, call up a new scene and set the Work Plane as needed. Then Windows> Customization> Set As Default Scene. Every new Scene should now have the Work Plane as wanted.

Besides when you have any suggestions, please submit them here:
https://www.maxon.net/en/support-center
"Share Your Idea!" please detail what and why you need it and which application needs to be connected. Typically there is an open door here at Maxon to other companies and applications.

The more I understand what you need, the more I can place a feature request in the database. I'm happy to do that.

Cheers